How would Einstein explain this? (Or how do you explain this)

topic posted Sat, December 18, 2004 - 3:03 PM by  Unsubscribed
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  • Poor experimental control.
    • Unsu...
       
      Ha ha Sam, that's good- perhaps it just depends on who is observing the water- so maybe you're right?
      • No, seriously. Emoto takes nice pictures, but I think he's fooling himself if he believes the ice crystals are really taking on these forms because of what word he's taped to the side of the jar. Neither the hado.net site nor Emoto's own website go into any detail about how the experiment is performed, and there is a great deal of water-related pseudoscience out there that this would have to make a good deal of effort to differentiate itself from (see www.chem1.com/CQ/ , or find some of the experiments performed by James Randi).

        I think the more likely explaination is that ice crystals form many shapes, and that if you look hard enough, you can find a shape in any given jar of water that reflects your own feelings about the word that was taped on the side of the jar.
        • Unsu...
           
          hmmm... very valid idea Sam... somthing to think about...
          • Not to be harsh, but Einstein had little patience for things masquerading as science and wouldn't have spent ten seconds on this.
            • All of creation is Light and Sound. Therefore, all are vibrations. Words...are vibrations. Water is a superb conductor of vibrations. It receives and responds. Hence - the amazingly beautiful images on that site...

              Thank you for posting the link, I enjoyed it very much.
              • Unsu...
                 
                Not a problem, Mary Joe.

                "Einstein wouldn't spend 2 seconds on this"

                WOW I think you're underestimating Einstein- not to mention basically calling him a narrow minded idiot. I do believe that in the active pursuit of science he might very well pursue this until it could proven or disproven. Any good scientist is by their very nature a teacher of sorts. I do believe that Einstein would want us to expand our understanding of our environment and ourselves. I do not believe he was a stupid man
                • Einstein, though by no means a stupid man, was also not infallible. His famous quote about God (or god, whichever) not playing dice with the universe goes along with his steadfast refusal to accept quantum mechanics, or at least to accept the fact that quantum mechanics is based on random probability. However, QM is now one of the most solidly established experimental sciences, and the theory behind it is fairly well understood.

                  To attempt to say that Einstein would or would not have supported this business with the ice crystals is impossible, since he is no longer alive. But I think it is safe to say that Einstein was interested in things that could be proved rigorously, and in that respect the ice crystals seem lacking.

                  It is my own opinion that Einstein would have been more interested, given his final project in life of trying to find the Theory of Everything, in something more fundamental, such as the mathematics behind superstring theory, which are currently unknown but which may, if proved true, actually be a ToE.

                  BTW, you might want to be careful with your quotes as well... :)
              • All of creation, as far as our understanding goes, is a mystery of wave motion and particles. Water is a keystone of nature. Much of science is evolved from studying water in its various aspects. The more I study the less I feel I know the subject. Einstein did not evolve a theory to be the end all of knowledge; he evolved a transient explanation meant to carry us the next step in understanding. Some of what Einstein developed was done as a pragmatic trade off of theoretical concepts to provide a working theory that was a stepping stone to a unified theory.

                Einstein understood the limitations of some of his choices and never considered them the last word in science. Read his letters and private documents.

                As for water; its beauty lies in its appearance and feel as well as the the science attempting to define it. Water absorbs and transmits energy in ways we fail to understand. We are beings of energy made of water; who is to say where we end and water begins or how we share the quality of experience?
                • If you're looking for fundamental stuff, I'm not sure that water is the place to start. You should probably start with just plain hydrogen, and head on down from there to the subatomic particles and eventually, perhaps, to strings. Water only has a special place in the transmission of energy if you accept things like the ice crystal experiments as science. Water is pretty well understood with conventional science, however, its properties are known and its behavior is pretty well understood, and it's no longer particularly mysterious from a chemical or physical standpoint.

                  We are only "beings made of energy" in the sense that matter and energy are equivilant in some sense, as Einstein showed with e=mc^2. However matter and energy may be linked, however, they have very different properties, so I think it is disingenuous to suggest that we are "made of energy".

                  Beauty is a different matter (so to speak). I personally do not think there is any inherent connection between mystery and beauty, or even between science and beauty. Beauty, as they say, is in the eye of the beholder, and the fact that we see something as beautiful does not necessarily mean that it has special signifigance beyond that.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Poor Sam - he does not see the connection between science and beauty or even mystery and beauty....wow. You have never seen the elegance of high mathmatics I presume, dear sir. How amazing. I assure you...it is beautiful BEYOND measure....maybe that's why you can't see it.....
                    • Please note that I did not say that either mysterious things or scientific things *could not* be beautiful, only that there is no inherent connection between the two. Please do not condescend to take pity on me because your subjective views of beauty and my own do not match. I do not think it has been (or can be) shown that there are some things that *all* people consider beautiful, which is why I say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

                      There are many things that I find beautiful, but I do not expect that everyone else will find them beautiful also, or for the same reasons. Just because something is beautiful, such as the pictures of the ice crystals, does not mean that there is signifigance there beyond their appearance, and just because something is explained scientifically does not render it less beautiful, only less mysterious.
                    • The concept of beauty is a human emotion. How are you making a relevant link to physics? I'm confused.
                      • Unsu...
                         
                        Jon, great question- somehow I think that human emtions and physics ARE related...hmmmm...
                        • Thanks, Jon. That has to do with what I was saying. Perhaps I misunderstood the link, but in my brief perusal of it, I thought it was suggesting that "meaning" was to be found in the crystals - something Einstein would not have spent 2 seconds on. Like they were communicating with us. But perhaps I misunderstood the link.
                          • Unsu...
                             
                            Einstein quotes on the Sacred:

                            o We have to do the best we can. This is our SACRED human responsibility.


                            o The intuitive mind is a SACRED gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.

                            Einstein quotes on Miracles:

                            o There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle The other is as though everything is a miracle.

                            Einstein quotes on Love:

                            o Where there is love there is no question.

                            Einstein quotes on Beauty/Mystery/Truth:

                            o The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science.

                            o The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and all science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed.

                            o Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge in the field of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.

                            o The pursuit of truth and beauty is a sphere of activity in which we are permitted to remain children all our lives

                            o I have deep faith that the principle of the universe will be beautiful and simple.

                            o One thing I have learned in a long life: that all our science, measured against reality, is primitive and childlike and yet it is the most precious thing we have.

                            o The ideals that have lighted my way and time after time have give me new courage to face life cheerfully, have been Kindness, Beauty and Truth.

                            o I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.

                            o Joy in looking and comprehending is nature's most beautiful gift.

                            o Imagination is more important than knowledge.

                            Einstein quotes on Humanity:

                            o Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a [person] does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses their intelligence.

                            o A human being is part of the whole called by us universe , a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty... We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive.


                            o Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

                            www.hitxp.com/quotes/einstein.htm
                            • What is your point with these quotes?
                              • Unsu...
                                 
                                Reading the previous comments in this thread and the thread about the "4 fundamental truths..." should give you an idea of why I presented the quotes.

                                Einstein quotes on God:


                                o I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details.

                                o I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. [He was speaking of Quantum Mechanics and the breaking down of determinism.] My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance -- but for us, not for God
                                The Human Side, 1954

                                o People like you and I, though mortal of course like everyone else, do not grow old no matter how long we live...[We] never cease to stand like curious children before the great mystery into which we were born. in a letter to Otto Juliusburger

                                o When the solution is simple, God is answering.

                                o Subtle is the Lord, but malicious He is not.

                                o He who finds though that lets us penetrate even a little deeper into the eternal mystery of nature has been granted great grace. He who, in addition, experiences the recognition, sympathy, and help of the best minds of his times, had been given almost more happiness than one man can bear.

                                o Quantum mechanics is very impressive. But an inner voice tells me that it is not yet the real thing. The theory yields a lot, but it hardly brings us any closer to the secret of the Old One. In any case I am convinced that He doesn't play dice.
                                • I read that other thread too, and saw the quotes there that you repeated here, and I'm still not understanding your point, which is why I asked. Are you suggesting that Einstein believed that there is some universal understanding of beauty, or that if he does, he is correct? Or maybe you're suggesting that Einstein believed that water can hold or respond somehow to words taped on the side of a jar, though none of these quotes remotely address that?

                                  I am not interested so much in what Einstein said (I have already seen most of these quotes) but in what *you* think the quotes mean. I do not interpret them as evidence that Einstein would have studied the idea that ice crystals respond to human language. Einstein was undoubtedly a genius, but he was by no means the be-all and end-all of physics, and a lot has happened in the world of physics since Einstein died. None of which, as far as I know, seriously supports the ideas presented on hado.net.
                                  • Unsu...
                                     
                                    I'm only presenting the information.
                                    • Raven - what excellent quotes from Einstein. I see the relevance totally. Thank you for posting them!

                                      Sam, Sam, Sam...I feel science and art are two sides of the same coin - and that coin is Beauty itself. Forgive me for sounding condescending. It just seems such an obvious fact to me and it surprises me that many "scientific" minds never see the connection between art, beauty and science. It's okay tho. But again, I apologize for my tone.
                                      • You should be apologizing for your tone because you aren't making any points besides saying that you are surprised that people don't see it as an obvious conclusion like you do.

                                        You need to show how emotions and physics (science) are linked in some fundamental way. Because to me and I assume Sam, it appears to me that you want to believe there is a link despite not being able to show or even articulated the basis of your acceptance. To make it worse you a belittling him for questioning that.
                                        • Unsu...
                                           
                                          Hey Jon, perhaps I can give a better explanation if that is what you were looking for:

                                          As outlined by the French physicist Louis de Broglie in 1923 (after Einstein had made the same assumption regarding light), waves and particles are dual aspects of the same phenomena: every particle behaves like a wave, and every wave can be associated to a particle. One can talk of energy and mass, or one can talk of frequency and wavelength. The two descriptions are equivalent, or, better, one complements the other.

                                          The character of this relationship was defined in 1925 by Werner Heisenberg in Germany and Erwin Schroedinger in Austria. Both devised equations that replaced the equations of Newton's physics, but both equations had unpleasant consequences: Heisenberg's equations implied that the result of a physical experiment depends on the order in which the calculations were performed, and Schroedinger's equations implied that each particle could only really be considered a wave. In 1926 Max Born realized the implications of the wave-particle duality: the wave associated to a particle turns out to be a wave of probabilities, in order to account for the alternative possibilities that open up for the future of a particle. The state of a particle is described by a "wave function" which summarizes (and superposes) all the alternatives and their probabilities. The wave function contains all the information there is about the particle (or, in general, about a system). It contains the answers to all the questions that can be asked about the particle.

                                          The reason this is a "wave" of probabilities and not just a set of probabilities is that the equation devised by Schroedinger to describe it is the equation of an electromagnetic wave.
                                          Schroedinger's equation describes how this wave function evolves in time, and is therefore the quantum equivalent of Hamilton's equations. The Schroedinger equation fixes, deterministically, the temporal development of the state of the universe. But at every point in time the wave function describes a set of possibilities, not just one actuality. The particle’s current state is actually to be thought of as a "superposition" of all those alternatives that are made possible by its wavelike behavior. A particle's current state is, therefore, a number of states: one can view the particle as being in all of those states at the same time. This is a direct consequence of a particle not being just a particle but being also a wave.

                                          As Born phrased it, the motion of particles follows the law of probabilities, but the probability itself follows the law of causality.
                                          In 1927 Bohr stated the ultimate paradox of the wave-particle duality: everything is both particle and wave, but one must choose whether to measure one or the other aspect of nature, and then stick to it. If you try to mix the two, you run into contradictions.

                                          In classical Physics, a quantity (such as the position or the mass) is both an attribute of the state of the system and an observable (a quantity that can be measured by an observer). Quantum Theory makes a sharp distinction between states and observables. If the system is in a given state, an observable can assume a range of values (so called "eigenvalues"), each one with a given probability. The evolution over time of a system can be viewed as due (according to Heisenberg) to time evolution of the observables or (according to Schroedinger) to time evolution of the states.

                                          An observer can measure at the same time only observables, which are compatible. If the observables are not compatible, they stand in a relation of mutual indeterminacy: the more accurate a measurement of the one, the less accurate the measurement of the other. Position and momentum are, for example, incompatible. This is a direct consequence of the wave-particle dualism: only one of the two natures is "visible" at each time. One can choose which one to observe (whether the particle, that has a position, or the wave, that has a momentum), but cannot observe both aspects at the same time.

                                          Precisely, Heisenberg’s famous "uncertainty principle" states that there is a limit to the precision with which we can measure, at the same time, the momentum and the position of a particle. If one measures the momentum, then it cannot measure the position, and vice-versa. This is actually a direct consequence of Einstein's equation that related the wavelength and the momentum (or the frequency and the energy) of a light wave: if coordinates (wavelength) and momentum are related, they are no longer independent quantities. Einstein never believed in this principle, but he was indirectly the one who discovered it.

                                          The wave function contains the answers to all the questions that can be asked about a system, but not all those questions can be asked simultaneously. If they are asked simultaneously, the replies will not be precise.

                                          The degree of uncertainty is proportional to the Planck constant. This implies that there is a limit to how small a physical system can be, because, below a quantity proportional to the Planck constant and called "Planck length", the physical laws of Quantum Theory stop working altogether. The Planck scale (10^-33 cm, i.e. the shortest possible length, and 10^-43 sec, i.e. the time it takes for a light beam to cross the Planck length, i.e. the shortest possible time tick) is the scale at which space-time is no longer a continuum but becomes a grid of events separated by the Planck distance. What happens within a single cell of the grid, is beyond the comprehension of Physics. As the American physicist John Wheeler suggested in the 1950s, even the very notions of space and time stop making sense in this "quantum foam".

                                          Given the above, it is my contention that thought, (which can be measured by waves) directly affect quarks which in turn effect particles which in turn effect solid matter and the environment. Is this the explanation you were looking for?

                                          • When you quote from a website, please give the source.

                                            www.thymos.com/tat/physics.html

                                            All this article tells us (at least, what is quoted here) is that light has the properties of both a wave and a particle, and that, according to Heisenberg, one cannot know both the position and the momentum of anything to an arbitrary degree of accuracy. What does this have to do with ice crystals?

                                            <<Given the above, it is my contention that thought, (which can be measured by waves) directly affect quarks which in turn effect particles which in turn effect solid matter and the environment. Is this the explanation you were looking for?>>

                                            It is rather disingenuous to suggest that "thought" is measured by waves. We can measure electrical activity in the brain by detecting electromagnetic waves, and thoughts are one activity that takes place in the brain, and causes such waves. However, these waves aren't any different than any other electromagnetic waves, and in fact are much weaker than most waves we encounter daily, such as those generated by computer monitors, cell phones, or power lines.

                                            Electromagnetic waves do interact with matter, but there is no evidence to suggest (again, unless you take the hado.net stuff to be actual science) that you can extrapolate from that statement the idea that our brainwaves change how ice crystals are formed.
                                        • Jon, I don't NEED to show anything. I'm not trying or even care to persuade anybody here to accept what I know in my soul to be true. I'm working on formulas to articulate such an extensive topic but I am in process and have only been working on it for a year. I don't require fomulas to believe. I know, and then the formula is created.

                                          I responded to RAVEN's question initially. I thought it absurd to read that Sam did not see any connection between science and beauty (Einstein obviously did). I don't want to fight, debate, or prove anything to you whatsoever.
                                          • Unsu...
                                             
                                            Amy Jo, I often time feel the way you do about explanations and it typically is not like me to respond so in depth. I know you're not directly talking to me but I think what happened here is very typical of what happens when certain people try to advance thought and the opposition is great. How did Einstein put it?

                                            o Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a [person] does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses their intelligence.

                                            I knew inevitably this would happen. Personally, I don't think that there is any 'good' or 'bad' here, just the natural course that seems to happen when anything is pushed past it's perceived limits.
                                      • Amy Jo, apology accepted, thank you.

                                        I say there is no *inherent* connection between beauty, science, and art, because the only one of those three things that is not subjective is science. What is beautiful and what is art to a person depends on that individual. What is true scientifically depends on what is verifiable by *all* individuals, that is the essence of science. What seems obvious may or may not actually be true. Many things that seem intuitive have been shown to be much more complicated in reality, and many apparently complicated things have been shown to be simple.

                                        One cannot rely on feelings of beauty when trying to decide what is scientifically true. It may be an *indicator*, but there is no substitute for scientific verification. String theory, for instance, is widely considered to be very elegant mathematically, and I agree. But until we are able to verify it, it cannot be accepted as an accurate description of our universe.
                                        • Unsu...
                                           
                                          Wow- I'm really blown away that you can read an article and not see that it is discussing MUCH more than light. It's in black and white and you summerize it as "Light"- read again, Sam. (Somehow I believe this is related to your inability to see how everything is connected)

                                          It's obvious that neither side is going to be convinced and that's ok. I think the important thing is that there was a discussion. Period.
                                        • Hi Sam,

                                          I hate to burst your bubble, but there is nothing objective about science.

                                          The inherent connection between beauty, science, and art is language.

                                          We should reflect on the nature of language.

                                          What is a concept? How is a concept formed? How do we express it? Where is the objective reality in the concept? Etc.

                                          Personally, I believe Einstein's special theory of relativity reveals something about the mechanism of the mind, and nothing about what is "out there" in the universe.

                                          It speaks to me about the limitations of language, mathematical or otherwise. Somehow it exposes the dualistic workings of the mind... and how we need to move beyond it in order to experience reality.

                                          Swami Sivananda put it in much simpler language, "drown yourself in Atman." Hey, I like the idea anyway. :)

                                          Peace,
                                          Denny
                                          • <<...there is nothing objective about science.>>

                                            What?? Science is all about what is objective. What is objective is what exists for everyone. Science is the description of objective reality. In your next post you say:

                                            <<Therefore, if we wish to experience objective reality, we must acquire an objective psyche. We must eliminate the subjectivity which our perceptions introduce into daily life.>>

                                            The way to eliminate subjectivity is to follow the scientific method. The scientific method is all about making sure that what we observe, and how we choose to describe it, is true for *everyone*, not just a few people, hence: objective. It doesn't matter what language it's written in.

                                            What exactly do you think Einstein't theory of special relativity says about the mind? As far as I can tell, the only thing special relativity addresses fundamentally are the ideas that 1) two observers in different inertial states (i.e. moving in different directions or different speeds) will not see any differences in the experiments they perform (i.e. the laws of physics do not change depending on how fast you go, or in which direction) and 2) the speed of light is constant.

                                            I'm not sure how those would apply to our minds except in the rather trivial sense that it would define, for instance, the maximum speed at which two neurons could theoretically communicate with each other.
                                            • You seem to be upset, Sam. Have I insulted your God? :)

                                              Seriously, think about it.

                                              What is at the root of science? Deductive and inductive modes of reasoning, right? The problem is: we must accept the premises of the former without question, and we can't verify the claims made by the latter without a self-referential loop (i.e., further induction).

                                              Please tell me, how can we build a stable house on such a rickety foundation?

                                              Science works -- it is useful -- but, then again, so is a toothbrush. However, neither of them are in the business of Truth. It's elementary, my dear Watson.

                                              Here's something you haven't thought about lately --

                                              If you concentrate on one and only one thought until the moment sleep arrives, you will split into the astral dimension. Once there, you may ask your Divine Mother for a teaching. It is enough to say, "My Mother, please teach me."

                                              Anybody and everybody can perform this experiment anywhere in the world and they will see that it is true. Moreover, they will see that a superior force is guiding them, which has more wisdom than we can possibly imagine.

                                              For example, the first time I tried this, I was shown an event that happened three months later. I swear before my God (which I obviously believe in, right?), I was shown the future. There is no mistaking it.

                                              Naturally, you will say that this is subjective and unreal, but for me, it was very real indeed. I cannot deny that it was the same exact event, the only difference being it was witnessed while flying through treetops.

                                              Am I to say that this didn't happen simply because another observer wasn't present? Must I have another party present in order to actualize reality? If that is the case, what happens when I'm on the toilet? How can I be sure it's really happening?

                                              Modern physics is running into problems because of consciousness. Simply put, the scientific establishment can't handle this variable adequately. It is much too hard to pin down.

                                              Yet we try, or we lie to ourselves and say we've figured it all out. Why? It's because we intellectualize too much and reflect too little. We view life in terms of prose, rather than poetry. We want the facts and nothing but the facts, thank you very much.

                                              Most view the ancients as naive cavemen, but perhaps they were much more advanced than our modern "civilization" in many ways.

                                              Perhaps they had a more appropriate mode of experience. Perhaps they understood the greater mysteries of life and death, of being and non-being. Perhaps their metaphorical reading of existence was more appropriate than our literal interpretation.

                                              Think of it: Have you ever seen a neuron? Why do you speak of it as if it's really there? Have you successfully boxed yourself in with dogmatic assumptions?

                                              How will you break new ground if you don't question the foundations of so-called knowledge?

                                              Consider the relation of language to the mind and the mind to the world. Consider the nature of light and our perception of it. Consider the universe as information.

                                              Consider that this world could very well be a great illusion. Consider the Dance of Shiva. Consider it. That's all. :)

                                              "Language is a virus from outer space." -- William S. Burroughs

                                              "Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language." -- Wittgenstein

                                              Peace,
                                              Denny
                                              • I'm atheist, so no, you have not insulted my god. I am upset, however, because I think you are showing the type of sloppy thinking that leads *away* from truth rather than toward it.

                                                <<Anybody and everybody can perform this experiment anywhere in the world and they will see that it is true.>>

                                                I have actually tried that experiment and I can say that it is untrue. It is subjective. Not everyone who goes to sleep thinking one particular thought (if that's even possible to define) will have a divine experience, because I have done that, and not had one. Science is not concerned with what one individual person sees, it is concerned with what *every* individual sees. I don't have very much in common with a New Guinean headhunter, but we both know that trees are hard, whereas rotten fruit is soft. That is objective reality, and the domain of science.

                                                <<Naturally, you will say that this is subjective and unreal, but for me, it was very real indeed.>>

                                                You have nicely illustrated here the difference between objective and subjective reality. What was real *for you* is not necessarily real *for everyone*. The small pink dragon that is right now sitting on my shoulder is equally real to me, but is it real to you? The dragon is part of my subjective reality, and not in the domain of science, as it cannot be experienced by anyone else.
                                                • << I have actually tried that experiment and I can say that it is untrue. It is subjective. Not everyone who goes to sleep thinking one particular thought (if that's even possible to define) will have a divine experience, because I have done that, and not had one. >>

                                                  Try this everyday with religious tenacity and you will find success! --

                                                  You have tried it before, so you must've seen that thoughts do in fact pop up uninvited. It is a habit of the chattering mind, a problem we all face. However, we can overcome it.

                                                  Take 10 mintues in the morning, find a comfortable chair, close your eyes, and concentrate on your heartbeat. Try to feel it beating in your chest, your fingertips, or in your nose. Anytime an extraneous thought pops in, return to the heartbeat. Do so gradually, casually.

                                                  At night, or maybe for an afternoon nap, lie down in your bed like a dead man (i.e., on your back with arms to your sides) and pronounce the following mantra out loud for a minute or two --

                                                  Inhale, Exhale Laaaaaaaaaaaaaa (as in law)
                                                  Inhale, Exhale R-r-r-r-r-raaaaaaa (trill the R)
                                                  Inhale, Exhale Sssssssssssssssss (like a snake)

                                                  Then continue mentally until you manage to come out of your physical body. This will happen when it goes to sleep.

                                                  There is no doubt, since this happens every single time the body goes to sleep. The problem is that our minds are chattering, so we're knocked unconscious and are unaware of the split.

                                                  Then the subconscious mind begins projecting its fantasies onto the "screen" of the astral plane, which is highly susceptible to thought, and sometimes we wake up with a memory of them. These are what we typically call dreams.

                                                  However, if we enter consciously, we will see that the astral is indeed a shared reality, which is normally obscured by subconscious projections. Much like the physical plane is sometimes obscured by daydreams.

                                                  We can see other people in the astral who are stuck in their subconscious imagery, and they look like zombies. They don't even realize where they are.

                                                  If you still find no success after trying the above exercises, you can set your alarm for 3 am or so. When it goes off, get up and get a drink of water, return to bed and try again. Your mind will be quieter because it has had some rest. You can set the alarm for 4 am if you would like to have another go.

                                                  One more thing, you can also realize when you're stuck in dreams by doing reality checks. If you sincerely question your environment throughout the day, you will soon be able to realize when you're stuck in a dream.

                                                  A good way to check is by jumping up and trying to float. Or you could pull on your finger and see if it stretches out like rubber. Then again, you can try to push your hand through a desk or a door or whatever (a very weird sensation in the astral).

                                                  For instance, right now. You could be reading this in a dream. The subconscious might remember it from the first time you read it, only you can't be sure when that was, so you should get up right now and take a little hop with the intention of floating.

                                                  In all probability, you won't realize you're dreaming unless you do this at least one hundred times a day. Moreover, you must question with sincerity. It will work, though. It is something of an internal science. If you put in the effort, you will see that it is possible for anybody to wake up.

                                                  After all, that is why we are here -- TO WAKE UP! :)

                                                  << but we both know that trees are hard, whereas rotten fruit is soft. >>

                                                  Perhaps there are some who can pass right through that tree? Perhaps.

                                                  Peace,
                                                  Denny
                                                  • One more thing -- in order to retain the memories, you should train yourself to be absolutely still upon waking. Right when you open your eyes, close them and keep still. Begin to remember your dreams.

                                                    If nothing comes, mentally intone the following mantra --

                                                    RaaaaaaaaaOooooooooooommmmmmmmm
                                                    GaaaaaaaaaOooooooooooommmmmmmmm

                                                    Ra = Raw, Ga = Gaw
                                                    Pronounce the O like the O in "more"

                                                    Actually, just by doing this, you will begin to remember many more of your dreams. Writing them down will also help in this department.

                                                    Of course, this will be rather difficult if you have to wake to an alarm. It can always be used on weekends or after naps, though.